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Question about European feudalism.

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have m...
Cracking Insane Sound Barrier
  06/14/13
just walk outside bro
Boyish shaky jewess
  05/29/25
(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)
Boyish shaky jewess
  05/29/25
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Boyish shaky jewess
  07/12/26
Nigga WTF do you know about this? Why are you so fucking obs...
Spruce athletic conference field
  07/12/26
cumskins dont make trillions of threads about asians though ...
Boyish shaky jewess
  07/12/26
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nyuug
  08/04/26
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nyuug
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nyuug
  08/10/26
Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the la...
razzmatazz indirect expression lodge
  05/29/25
Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitar...
Racy boistinker
  05/29/25
(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded ...
razzmatazz indirect expression lodge
  05/29/25
They were better because you had different tribal clans owni...
Racy boistinker
  05/29/25
read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of ...
razzmatazz indirect expression lodge
  05/29/25
Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the P...
Supple pit
  07/01/25
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Indigo Duck-like Partner Trailer Park
  07/13/25
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Vengeful spot
  07/13/25
what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?
Canary sanctuary
  05/29/25
cq
wine cruise ship elastic band
  05/29/25
I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on ju...
frum filthpig
  06/03/25
teen black death survivors were the original Boomers
Supple pit
  07/02/25
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Umber soul-stirring nursing home
  12/18/25
i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf ...
Silver Naked Temple Stain
  06/08/25
Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as ba...
Useless house
  07/01/25
really depended on the country, the region, and the lord re...
titillating kitchen
  07/16/25
It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar s...
Glittery Alcoholic Turdskin
  11/11/25
it was a nanny state.
jet geriatric cuckoldry
  11/24/25
Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a sett...
Glittery Alcoholic Turdskin
  12/08/25
actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts four...
titillating kitchen
  12/18/25
13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per y...
blathering crystalline idea he suggested
  04/23/26
"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long ...
blathering crystalline idea he suggested
  04/23/26


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: June 14th, 2013 10:27 AM
Author: Cracking Insane Sound Barrier

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have most societies historically been based on similar systems?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#23393887)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:29 AM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess

just walk outside bro

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48969812)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:30 AM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess

(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48969813)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:24 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48985020)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 8th, 2025 5:55 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48997575)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2025 9:14 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49064860)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 3rd, 2025 8:14 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49070377)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 6th, 2025 8:32 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49077411)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 8th, 2025 10:20 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49084518)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49098591)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 14th, 2025 5:12 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49101058)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2025 3:43 AM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49105012)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 20th, 2025 8:00 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49117359)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 24th, 2025 5:37 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49128622)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 29th, 2025 11:50 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49141968)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 30th, 2025 6:59 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49143857)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 4th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49156580)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 10th, 2025 8:35 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49172980)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:33 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49421817)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:48 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49421862)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:57 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49421881)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 11:28 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49422254)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 7:15 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49424474)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49425035)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 1:21 AM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49425543)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 4:52 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49427654)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 8:27 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49436681)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 9:03 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49436785)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 17th, 2025 6:11 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49439167)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 18th, 2025 7:01 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49441985)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 23rd, 2025 8:51 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49454945)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 12:36 AM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49455274)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 6:55 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49457596)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49458108)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 12:15 AM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49461550)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 4:27 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49463581)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 10:41 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49464738)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 27th, 2025 5:48 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49466319)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 28th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49467160)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 2nd, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49478445)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 5:54 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49484240)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 9:25 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49484832)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 7th, 2025 7:20 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49492316)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49493000)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 8:23 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49495268)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 9th, 2025 3:57 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49497250)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 10th, 2025 9:55 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49500993)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 16th, 2025 9:07 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49515504)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:04 AM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49518561)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 21st, 2025 8:59 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49529071)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 22nd, 2025 8:47 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49532458)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 24th, 2025 12:00 AM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49536032)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 28th, 2025 6:54 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49545634)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 28th, 2025 7:05 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49545665)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 29th, 2025 9:19 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49548639)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 4th, 2026 8:56 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49562700)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 6th, 2026 7:39 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49567730)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2026 6:44 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49584404)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 14th, 2026 6:47 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49589879)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2026 7:47 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49604959)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:08 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49838395)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:38 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49838453)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 13th, 2026 7:20 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49884309)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 19th, 2026 8:56 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49890852)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 21st, 2026 5:25 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49893306)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 25th, 2026 6:16 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49900593)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 26th, 2026 8:51 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49903004)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 28th, 2026 5:55 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49905466)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2026 5:16 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49913565)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 7th, 2026 11:56 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49985467)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 8th, 2026 7:24 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49987106)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 9th, 2026 10:50 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49989901)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 8:27 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49995176)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 11:04 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49995527)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 11:18 PM
Author: Spruce athletic conference field

Nigga WTF do you know about this? Why are you so fucking obsessed with whites?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49995563)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 11:21 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess

cumskins dont make trillions of threads about asians though for sure

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49995567)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2026 5:50 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49997293)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 19th, 2026 9:36 PM
Author: Boyish shaky jewess



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#50011037)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 4th, 2026 9:58 PM
Author: nyuug



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#50046030)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 5th, 2026 5:46 PM
Author: nyuug



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#50047618)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 10th, 2026 9:45 PM
Author: nyuug



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#50059618)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:47 AM
Author: razzmatazz indirect expression lodge

Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the last 5k years relegated the vast majority of their agricultural labor force /population to a state of semi-slavery enforced by an exploitative elite with a monopoly on violence?

yes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48969854)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:51 AM
Author: Racy boistinker

Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitarianism. All the old Tribal Clans were abolished & people were turned into landless serfs, the only exceptions were the Elite Warlord Clans that got to rule as Lords/Kings.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48969860)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:55 AM
Author: razzmatazz indirect expression lodge

(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded it)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48969863)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 7:47 AM
Author: Racy boistinker

They were better because you had different tribal clans owning different regions, serfdom was a form of quasi-slavery, only the Kings/Lords had property rights.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48969954)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 1:37 PM
Author: razzmatazz indirect expression lodge

read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of egypt, mesopotamia, the indus and the yellow river valleys

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48971066)



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Date: July 1st, 2025 11:58 PM
Author: Supple pit

Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the Priestly Clique) than a humiliated cog of the Merchant Clique imho

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49065184)



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Date: July 13th, 2025 6:53 PM
Author: Indigo Duck-like Partner Trailer Park



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49098592)



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Date: July 13th, 2025 7:03 PM
Author: Vengeful spot



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49098608)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 8:52 AM
Author: Canary sanctuary

what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48970037)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 8:54 AM
Author: wine cruise ship elastic band

cq

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48970041)



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Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:32 PM
Author: frum filthpig

I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on just where you are, so not singularly shitty just situation dependent

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48985033)



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Date: July 2nd, 2025 12:06 AM
Author: Supple pit

teen black death survivors were the original Boomers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49065206)



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Date: December 18th, 2025 4:10 AM
Author: Umber soul-stirring nursing home



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49518664)



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Date: June 8th, 2025 6:07 PM
Author: Silver Naked Temple Stain

i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf to a feudal lord when i was younger. would have saved me a lot of pain cycling through shitty short-term jobs.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48997602)



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Date: July 1st, 2025 10:15 PM
Author: Useless house

Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as bad as most people think. They didn't have running water or electricity, but neither did the rulers.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49065026)



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Date: July 16th, 2025 4:01 AM
Author: titillating kitchen

really depended on the country, the region, and the lord

removing technology from the equation it could range from far more harmonious than what we have today to utterly hellish. the general trend towards centralization of power from the early middle ages and on and the rise of the professional state theoretically ensures a general better standard of living for a subject on average, or at the very least a set "floor" for QoL, but ends up removing a lot to do with the nuances of power relations and enduring senses of community in the process

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49105022)



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Date: November 11th, 2025 8:49 PM
Author: Glittery Alcoholic Turdskin

It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar systems in place for thousands of years and they were stable societies

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49421865)



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Date: November 24th, 2025 10:06 PM
Author: jet geriatric cuckoldry

it was a nanny state.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49458174)



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Date: December 8th, 2025 8:26 PM
Author: Glittery Alcoholic Turdskin

Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a settled species during the most recent 5% of our time on earth. There's absolutely nothing normal (or even good) about anything we do today, unless your goal is simply to put more people on the earth's surface

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49495273)



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Date: December 18th, 2025 1:07 AM
Author: titillating kitchen

actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts

foursquare feudalism otoh is a lot of fun and harmless if it's not infested with faggots

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49518563)



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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: blathering crystalline idea he suggested

13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per year with your bros, downtime all winter, zero "thank" emails

you: hiting 1620 billables in July while on your "working vacation" at the beach with your kids

https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49838409)



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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: blathering crystalline idea he suggested

"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long hours at all. The tempo of life was slow, even leisurely; the pace of work relaxed. Our ancestors may not have been rich, but they had an abundance of leisure. When capitalism raised their incomes, it also took away their time."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49838410)